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Thucydides’ Mytilenean Debate is an attempt to represent a fifth-century rhetoric in action. Such rhetoric is heavily influenced by an Athenian speech tradition of sophism or persuasive speech. Thucydides chooses Cleon and Deodotus to represent the opposite sides of the debate. Cleon, who argues for putting Mytileneans to death, is described as the most violent man in Athens. Deodotus argues against putting Mityleneans to death and uses rhetoric to persuade Athenians for a more rational and responsible decision. Cleon begins his argument by attacking the democracy for being indecisive and thus incapable of governing an empire. He argues that an empire is ultimately a tyranny and that the assembly fails to recognize that. The assembly doesn’t …show more content…
understand how to handle the Mytilene situation because they are giving way to their own compassion by listening to the Mytilenean appeals and thus putting themselves in danger by showing their allies their weakness. Cleon states that compassion is for those who can reciprocate it, not for those who commit treachery and will not show pity in return. He also says that pity, sentiment, and indulgence are the most fatal things to an empire and Athenians already posses those qualities. He goes on saying that the heart of the problem lies in Athenian political orators who believe to be smarter than the rest of the people. He states that Athenians are “slaves to the pleasure of the ear” and would rather listen to a rhetorician than the council of the city. Cleon proceeds to attack the Mytileneans for deciding to ally with Athens’ enemy and says that this decision is worse than if they were to declare a war against Athens. He believes that if Athenians don’t punish Mytilene for their revolt, they will look weak and the other allies may also revolt against them. Cleon finishes his argument by saying that the best policy for making political decisions is to act however one feels at the height of his emotional reaction. Diodotus counter-argues all of Cleon’s points and states that the roots of Cleon’s complains come from Cleon himself.
He believes that haste and passion are two worst things for good council and endorses deliberation to be the best policy for decision making process. Deodotus says that Cleon is trying to frighten the assembly with his arguments and that any good citizen wins by beating an opponent fairly in the argument instead of trying to frighten him. He undermines Cleon for criticizing the Athenian audience for turning the political debate into theatre and states that Cleon himself is giving the audience a good show. Deodotus attacks Cleon’s allegations of bribery and says that these kind of allegations destroy a city because they frighten off good advisors. He believes that the reasonable and responsible thing to do would be to refrain from harsh retribution and justice. While Deodotus does admit that the Mytileneans are guilty, he does not advise their death. If the Athenians were to side with Cleon’s argument, they would commit a crime by killing their benefactors and would be facing the higher classes. By this, he means that the oligarchies would induce their cities to rise and revolt against Athens. Diodotus finishes by arguing for expedience over justice and deterrence over retribution for the sake of the city and it’s
future. While Cleon’s arguments makes a lot of sense when thinking about the possibilities of others rebelling against Athens, Diodotus understands that the consequences of punishing Mytileneans with death are worse than the possibility of another revolt. Diodotus won the Mytilenean Debate because his arguments succeeded in persuading Athenians that killing is senseless and wrong and that deliberation can go a long way when making political decisions. Thucydides underlines that the vote was very close, however, Deodotus’ arguments were more sensible and just. If I had a chance to vote in the assembly determining the fate of the Mytileneans, I would vote in favor of Deodotus. I believe that killing the whole male population of a city for treachery is heinous and unjust. Deodotus argues that every city that revolts against another does so with hope for a better future for all of it’s citizens. If the city does not believe that the revolt will be beneficial to them, they will not do it. Therefore, one cannot punish people with death for hope of a better future. Cleon’s vapid argument that the best way to make political decisions is to act in the height of emotional reaction is incredibly irresponsible. One must make political decisions with a careful consideration of every individual that may be affected by them. When one is at the height of his emotional reaction, the judgment becomes clouded by emotions and the final decision may be irrational and dangerous.
Throughout Aristophanes’ “Clouds” there is a constant battle between old and new. It makes itself apparent in the Just and Unjust speech as well as between father and son. Ultimately, Pheidippides, whom would be considered ‘new’, triumphs over the old Strepsiades, his father. This is analogous to the Just and Unjust speech. In this debate, Just speech represents the old traditions and mores of Greece while the contrasting Unjust speech is considered to be newfangled and cynical towards the old. While the defeat of Just speech by Unjust speech does not render Pheidippides the ability to overcome Strepsiades, it is a parallel that may be compared with many other instances in Mythology and real life.
Creon believes that his laws are absolute and must be followed above all else, even Divine Law. Therefore when Antigone, in accordance with divine law, goes against Creons edict by burying her brother she is forcefully imprisoned and sentenced to death by Creon. In Creons opening speech he says, “Of course you cannot know a man completely, his character, his principles, sense of judgment … Experience, there’s the test” (Sophocles, p. 67). How Creon handles Antigones unlawful actions serves as his first test as the new king of Thebes and ends up showing the Thebans a glimpse of his true nature, that of a tyrannical ruler. This can be seen again when Haemon comes to Creon with the hope of dissuading him from his current course of action. He does this by trying to make Creon understand that the citizens of Thebes don’t agree with his use of power and planned execution of Antigone. Again Creons authoritarian nature comes to light in his response to Haemon, “And is Thebes about to tell me how to rule… Am I to rule this land for others – or myself?” (Sophocles, p. 97). To which Haemon counters by saying that “its no city at all, owned by one man alone” (Sophocles, p. 97). Creon, being the tyrant he is, fails to heed the wisdom of his sons’ words, which ultimately leads to his downfall. Creon, like Machiavelli, believed that it was
1) According to Thucydides, during the civil war at Corcyra a re-evaluation of values took place in the populace (3.82). Explain the nature of these re-evaluations, and the reason(s) they took place.
Not understanding or listening to the opinion of others can frequently have unfortunate consequences and even lead to tragedy. In the play, Antigone, written by Sophocles, the two main characters, Antigone and Creon, both failed to listen which led to the death of several people. It was exhibited how important it is to acknowledge the truth and this was the central theme of the play. The conflict between Antigone and Creon started because they had opposing viewpoints of whether or not Antigone’s brother, Polyneices, should have been buried after he died in battle. Antigone strongly believed that Polyneices should have because it was the law of the gods and they are eternal, while man’s laws are not. However, Creon, on the other hand,
The play Antigone by Sophocles is about reason and opinion and reveals how people use their voice to be heard. Antigone uses reasoning and opinions to express their moral beliefs and state laws in the play. People manipulate each other by using these terms to get their way by speaking out and standing up for themselves.
...y exist within the two viewpoints, making a conclusion that much more difficult. Throughout the play, each character rattles off the reasons for their actions. Both also justify their actions religiously, believing they are the ones acting accordingly by the gods. The entire plot is a construction of conflict between personal and social motives, a scene not uncommon in today’s society. Sophocles attempts to answer the debate by ultimately showing that the gods approved of Antigone’s motives and that Creon should have buried his nephew. But with so much unnecessary bloodshed committed at the end of the story, it is impossible to believe that this is the final decision. Sophocles believed that the individual held the power and the state shouldn’t have total control over an individual. This is hardly a solution to the debate, the fact that everyone dies. Rather, it is a sign that the debate will live on for all of eternity.
Socrates reaches a conclusion that defies a common-sense understanding of justice. Nothing about his death sentence “seems” just, but after further consideration, we find that his escape would be as fruitless as his death, and that in some sense, Socrates owes his obedience to whatever orders Athens gives him since he has benefited from his citizenship.
Creon does not want to be a bad king, using his power for evil things, but instead, he wants to be seen as strong and great king, but his temper and arrogance stops him from becoming a good king, and he stays more like a tyrant, the people only keeping their mouths shut because they are afraid to speak. For example, in lines (8-64) he gives a speech to the people of the town. He states that “As for the man who sets private friendship above the public welfare, I have no use of him either”(lines 23-24).He is being cruel, so the people of Thebes do not take him for an easy king but rather fear him if they do not obey his laws. This puts them in a tough situation, whether they should listen to their friends and the gods, or to Creon’s tyrical rule. Creon states, “As I see it, whoever assumes the task, the awesome task of setting the city’s course, and refuses to adopt the soundest policies but fearing someone, keeps his lips locked tight, and he’s utterly worthless” (lines 198-202). This shows Creon thinks that a good leader should be powerful and set firm, strict laws in order to be respected. He believes that if someone di...
Using Creon and Antigone, Sophocles illustrates the way that nomos and physis support their opposing viewpoints. When Antigone's two brothers, Eteocles and Polyneices, kill each other in battle, Creon, her uncle, succeeds to the throne. Once in power, he makes a law that no one can bury Polyneices because he was un-loyal to his native land. If anyone defied his new law by burying him, then the perpetrator would be killed and left unburied. However, Antigone felt that both of her brothers should have a proper burial, and disobeyed Creon's law by burying Polynneices knowing she would have to suffer the consequences. When brought before Creon, she defended her actions through phys...
In Sophocles’ play, Antigone, the main character uses rhetoric to effectively persuade her audiences to sympathize with her. In the play, Antigone’s brother, Polyneices, dies a traitor to the Theban people. The king, Creon, decrees that no one is to bury the traitor despite the necessity of burial for proper passing into the afterlife. Believing that Creon’s decree is unjust, Antigone buries her brother. When she is brought to the king, Antigone uses this speech in defense of her actions. In the speech, she uses allusion, diction, and particular sentence structure to increase the effectiveness of her argument.
Creon declares that an incompetent king "refuses to adopt the soundest policies" and also" p...
In the following paper, I plan to discuss the source of conflict between the title characters of Antigone and Creon in Sophocles’ “Antigone”. I also plan to discuss how each character justifies his or her actions and what arguments they give for their justifications. I will also write about the strengths and weaknesses of these arguments. The final points I try to make are about who Sophocles thinks is right and who I think is right.
In this paper, I will first extract Thucydides views from the Melian Dialogue and then analyze whether or not these views are well founded. Thucydides believed that the Athenians had the stronger argument. Proof of this lies in the way Thucydides picked the arguments for each side. For the moment, we will disregard the actual content of the arguments, and look at argumentation forms and the flow of the debate. The Melians argued using consequences of an Athenian take over.
In 399 BC, Socrates, the great philosopher in ancient Greece, was put to death under the hands of his Athenian fellow-citizens to whom he had a strong attachment, after a final vote with over two-thirds of jurymen against him. We cannot experience the situation where Socrates gave his final argument in the court of law. From Plato’s Apology, we admire Socrates’ brilliant rhetoric and rigorous logic, while at the same time feel pity for him and indignant with those ruthless jurymen. However, the question of what exactly caused his death and why was Socrates, such a remarkable thinker sentenced to death in the very society that valued democracy the most is not easy and straightforward to answer. There are multiple elements involved that finally caused this tragedy in which “a person of high moral principle is confronted step by step with a situation from which there is no escape” (38). First of all, the moral principle and belief in divinity held by Socrates are inconsistent with those of the Athenian society, implying the very crimes charged upon Socrates were not completely groundless. Secondly, the imperfect juridical system of Athens played a role in causing this tragedy. What’s more, Socrates himself, could have offered better defense in the court, also had a hand in his own death by his stubbornness regarding to his own interpretation of wisdom and piety. His rebuttal, though brilliant and insightful, was not persuasive enough to move the fellow-citizens for his wrong approach and sophistry in his cross-examination on Meletus.
Thucydides, considered one of the greatest ancient historians, spent part of his life detailing the war between Athens and Sparta. In his work, The History of the Peloponnesian War, he includes a speech given by Pericles at the first Athenian funeral of the war. Right after the speech by Pericles, Thucydides follows with a description of the plague that cripples the population of the city. Thucydides does this to make a statement on his personal views of the Athenian society.