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Thucydides the melian dialogue beliefs on mankind
Power in our societies
Power as the source of conflict
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Thucydides lived in a time when lands were strife with war, and strong nations overpowered weaker states in order to amass an empire. This brutal landscape shaped the way in which Thucydides viewed human nature. He believed that human nature was wild, uncontrollable, cruel, and unjust, and it must be controlled by a stronger power, namely the state of which the humans resided. Human nature drives individuals to pursue whatever means necessary in their own self-interest and greed. Both human nature and power coincide in this manner since they are both self-interested, greedy, and wish to be in control. A strong state is mandatory in order to efficiently manage both power and human nature. Thucydides states that civilization must place
restraints on the citizens, in the form of laws, so it may control the destructive nature of humans. This restraint is a social contract, that both the citizen and the state enter into, which provides protection to the citizens under the laws, but takes away some of the individual’s freedom. Ethics and morality belong within states and within citizens of the same state, with both the weak and powerful receive the same treatment under the law. This social contract is exclusive to the citizens of a state. No such contract exists between different states, therefore, there is no moral obligations or legitimacy between state interactions. Interstate politics lack regulation and justice; they’re unethical because there is nothing controlling the unjust human nature. The Melian dialogue illuminates the unjust political affairs between states when Athens declares, “the strong do what they have the power to do and the weak accept what they have to accept.” Thus, Thucydides concludes that international relations are determined by might as opposed to right. The hierarchy of power determines how states interact with each other, disregarding ethics.
In Book 1 of the ‘Republic’, Socrates, in answer to the question ‘What is Justice?’ is presented with a real and dangerous alternative to what he thinks to be the truth about Justice. Julia Annas believes Thrasymachus thinks Justice and Injustice do have a real existence that is independent of human institutions; and that Thrasymachus makes a decided commitment to Injustice. She calls this view ‘Immoralism’: “the immoralist holds that there is an important question about justice, to be answered by showing that injustice is better.” This essay identifies this ‘Immoral’ view before understanding if and how Plato can respond to it. How does Plato attempt to refute Thrasymachus’s argument? Is he successful?
Thrasymachus has just stated, "Justice is nothing other than the advantage of the stronger", and is now, at the request of Socrates, clarifying his statement.
Thucydides was right to claim that all wars can be explained by Fear, Honor, and Interest. All Wars are related to the three characteristics as stated by Dr. Nation (Dr. Nation video). The Athenians thought process was that the weak would be ruled by the strong and that was the nature of conflict (Strassler p. 43). Looking at the Peloponnesian war itself will illustrate how fear, honor and interest were involved with how this war developed. The initial unnamed Athenian that made that statement was probably using it to deter war with Sparta when it mostly incited the war (Dr. Nation Video). The Athenians wanted to maintain and sustain their city state but also expand it. They were expanding through their alliances and this is what invoked the
During our history there have been many important governments in the world. Out of these governments, the Hammurabi’s and Thucydides are very strong governments. These governments are well known for their strong leadership and firm relationship between the people. On the other hand, the Magna Carta is the evidence of unsuccessful events of king john.
Many societal ills in a given culture can be attributed to the pride that develops in leaders and the aggressive effect this nature has on the need for personal gain. In his work The Republic, Plato spends a great deal of time outlining his vision of a society in which man's arrogant and competitive nature is unable to root itself into the government of the city, thus creating a completely just and good society. Nevertheless, even Plato realized that because of the inevitable influence of man's lust for power, no society could retain a perfectly just government forever. As man's greed overcomes the integrity of the "healthy city", oppression will take root. The inherent arrogance grows until the leader becomes an embodiment of injustice, what Plato calls in The Republic a tyrant. The rule of a tyrant can directly affect the lives and well-bring of every man under the unjust leader, as is demonstrated by Agamemnon in The Iliad. Homer's masterpiece is a perfect example of how egotism and a need for power over another can compromise the well being of an entire army. Agamemnon's reactions to the events and people who surround him in The Iliad prove that he possesses many of the characteristics of the tyrannical leader Plato describes in The Republic.
A longstanding debate in human history is what to do with power and what is the best way to rule. Who should have power, how should one rule, and what its purpose should government serve have always been questions at the fore in civilization, and more than once have sparked controversy and conflict. The essential elements of rule have placed the human need for order and structure against the human desire for freedom, and compromising between the two has never been easy. It is a question that is still considered and argued to this day. However, the argument has not rested solely with military powers or politicians, but philosophers as well. Two prominent voices in this debate are Plato and Machiavelli, both of whom had very different ideas of government's role in the lives of its people. For Plato, the essential service of government is to allow its citizens to live in their proper places and to do the things that they are best at. In short, Plato's government reinforces the need for order while giving the illusion of freedom. On the other hand, Machiavelli proposes that government's primary concern is to remain intact, thereby preserving stability for the people who live under it. The feature that both philosophers share is that they attempt to compromise between stability and freedom, and in the process admit that neither can be totally had.
The Peloponnesian War (431-404 B.C.) was a conflict between the Athenian Empire and the Peloponnesian League led by Sparta that resulted in the end of the Golden Age of Athens. The events of the war were catalogued by the ancient historian Thucydides in The History of the Peloponnesian War. Thucydides’ writings showed the ancient Greek belief that there is a parallel between the city-state and the character of its citizens; in order for the city-state to be successful, its citizens must be virtuous. Thucydides did not believe that the true cause of the Peloponnesian War were the immediate policies of the Athenian Empire against the city-states in the Peloponnesian League but rather the fundamental differences in the character of the two city-states
So naturally, man will put all of his effort and resources into getting more power and making sure that his wants and desires are met. According to Hobbes, power seems to be the only way man can assure that his lifestyle, wants and needs are maintained. In the Leviathan, Hobbes makes a comparison to Kings. He talks about how kings have all the power in their kingdom and in order to maintain their power, they have to get more. In order to get more power, they take over and conquer other lands. Hobbes says that man is the same way essentially. Men have a need to dominant and take over those that are inferior. Man has a need to cause other bat...
We have now examined Thucydides' strongest arguments for Athenian rule. It is clear that Athens had a stronger claim to rule than the Melians had to remain sovereign. We also know that Athens' claims hold up when we examine them for validity. Thucydides beliefs in Athens' claims were therefore well founded.
In Plato’s The Republic, we, the readers, are presented with two characters that have opposing views on a simple, yet elusive question: what is justice? In this paper, I will explain Thrasymachus’ definition of justice, as well as Socrates’s rebuttals and differences in opinion. In addition, I will comment on the different arguments made by both Socrates and Thrasymachus, and offer critical commentary and examples to illustrate my agreement or disagreement with the particular argument at hand.
...so. But anyone who follows such precept in present-day civilization only puts himself at a disadvantage vis-à-vis the person who disregards it. What a potent obstacle to civilization aggressiveness must be, if the defense against it can cause as much unhappiness as aggressiveness itself!” (Freud, 146)
Many extensive examples of tyranny have existed in ancient Greece. One of the most influential examples is considered to be Thrasybulus, who was the tyrant of Miletus during the 7th century. Thrasybulus is manly well known for his action of walking through a field of corn with a messenger from Corinth. Thrasybulus believed that a ruler needed to remove its competition or the ruler would be eliminated. After his influence, tyranny would soon take an impact in the region and societies would not respond very well. Thrasybulus set the foundation for how many tyrants would rule for years to come.
...s are a paradigm case of those in control. The essence of ruling is, therefore, to be unjust and that is why a tyrant is a perfect ruler. He always knows what is to his advantage and how to acquire it. Thrasymachus’ view of justice is appealing but therein lies a moral danger and this is refuted by Socrates.
Justice is the driving force for the Athenian empire and the people of Melos. It acts as the catalyst for the actions of both parties in the dialogue produced by Thucydides. However, the Athenians and the Melians have radically different views regarding the idea of justice and its intended role. The envoys sent from Athens have a plain view of justice. To them, the strong conquer, and the meek effectively roll over and accept their fate. These people view this as a simple fact of life. In response, the Melian council thinks of justice as a force that rewards the faithful and hopeful. Both parties feel that they encapsulate the notion of justice, and the direct result of these opposing ideas leads to a debate between the envoy and council. This debate shows how neither view of justice is particularly favored over the other. Rather, it is the difference in power that manages to give the edge to the Athenians.
In my opinion, Socrates’ analysis of human nature is very true as it ultimately brings us